Ageless Male: My Horror Story

[spiderman]

The clomid sounds a bit dangerous for other aspects....Quote from steroid site

"The effects of Clomiphene Citrate include high blood pressure, which can be treated by medication or managed by weight loss and a lifestyle change. Loss of sight is an adverse side effect of using Clomiphene Citrate for a long time. Sometimes, sight may be impaired and the continued use of Clomiphene Citrate will cause blindness.".....eh not good!

[BlueMetroid]

Blindness...yikes! That's pretty scary. I'll definitely ask the endo about that tomorrow when I bring Clomid up to him.

I recall reading somewhere that Clomid can be used in the short term to "jump start" the natural T production in a man, then tapered off gradually. Is there any truth to this? Or will my low T problems come right back as soon as I discontinue Clomid?

[spiderman]

Don't know enough about the Clomid..just saw that link on steroid dot something...could be great for a short period I am sure..don't know if your levels would drop again tho..hopefully you could keep them boosted using supps/diet after stopping ...

[PeakT]

Hmmm.  I hadn't heard about that - my impression is that Clomid is generally quite well tolerated with minimal side effects (in males - I think women have a few more problems).  So talk to your doc but this appears to be very rare and only in the very unlikely case when the pituitary increases in size:

http://www.maledoc.com/blog/2010/04/28/how-clomid-works-in-men/

[BlueMetroid]

Hey all, I'm back from the endo. The appointment went well, and I'd love to get you guys thoughts on a few things.

He didn't know what the Ageless Male did to my system, but did acknowledge that my T levels were very low.

He ordered two sets of labs...one for today, and one in 3 weeks. The labs today checked DHEA, Free and Total T, one I didn't catch, and a screening for Klinefelter's Syndrome. The second set of labs in a few weeks will be another Free and Total T count, and a sperm count.

In the weeks between labs he recommended a low dose (50 mg) Testosterone Injection once per week (for a total of 3, perhaps 4 shots). He made it sound as if this would bring my T levels to the 500-600 range and jump start/stir up sperm production before my sperm count. He said if I have some sperm (even a few) it's a lot easier to hang onto those, and try to raise my count, yet if I'm not producing any sperm it could be hard to get back, or non reversable.

I asked him DIRECTLY if taking those 3-4 T injections would cause any side effects (testicular shrinkage, gyno, sterility, dependency on the shots, etc.) and he assured me no.

So I ask ya'll....is he correct? Am I safe using the shots for that short of a time without worrying about side effects?

Also, his stance on "jumpstarting" or "stirring up" sperm production for a couple weeks with shots before the count seems contradictory to what I've read. All my research seems to tell me T shots do just the opposite, shutting down sperm production. Am I right, or the doc? Perhaps my T levels were just so low that 3 weeks of shots would just normalize me, not cause me lasting side effects?

Any input is MUCH appreciated...and as always...thank you so much guys!

[PeakT]

I've never heard that regarding the jumpstart to the sperm production.  I'll try to find out though where he's coming from on that.

I don't think he explained fully - and this is just my nonprofessional opinion - enough about side effects.  It is true that testicular shrinkage is uncommon or imperceptible for any reasonable HRT dosage.  I remember one man claiming that he had shrinkage but that was just one person and it is definitely listed as a side effect.  Gyno is also considered a unusual side effect.

Look at this list from no less an authority as the Cleveland Clinic:

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/testosterone_replacement_therapy/hic_testosterone_replacement_therapy.aspx

You'll see both listed along with a discussion about loss of fertility.

Maybe he was saying that at that dosage he never sees those side effects?  I don't know, but I would definitely seek clarification if you have any doubts. 

[BlueMetroid]

I hadn't either, so I very much questioned it. I've still yet to find any info regarding this "jump start" he's talking about...in my (extremely) amateur opinion it would make more sense to do a sperm count before injections, to get a baseline. If anyone has heard of what he's trying to do, please let me know!

I totally agree...I don't think he adequately explained things. He was a nice guy, but I could've used more clarification.

So gyno and testicular shrinkage are both unusual side effects with T injections? I was under the impression they were common place. If that's true, then it's a huge relief. Can anyone verify this?

Thanks for the link and the info, PeakT. Unfortunately the Cleveland Clinic's fact sheet on T therapy specifically mentions younger men having fertility problems

I'm getting pretty nervous about the prospect of shots next week, and being so in the dark still about what the short term side effects would be. I'm supposed to call the endo back tomorrow for my lab results, maybe I can get some info from the Dr. then. But if anyone has anymore input, I definitely welcome it!

[PeakT]

Again, I've only had one man talk about testicular shrinkage and I'm almost positive no one with gyno.   But, of course, it's much more important to talk to a knowledgeable doc with years of experience and get his (or her) summary. 

[BlueMetroid]

That's comforting PeakT, thanks again for the info!

After several calls back and forth with my endo's nurse, I'm somewhat frustrated...

His nurse and the doc both seem to be pushing for me to start regular T injections, not just the 3 week trial. Apparently the 3 weeks of shots was supposed to allow me to get an erection, and thus get a sperm count. I guess my doc misunderstood...he probably thought I couldn't get it up at all right now, which isn't the case. I told the nurse that, and she said I could do the sample any time.

The only place that does the sperm count is an hour away....so Wednesday I'll be driving up to do that. I'm extremely nervous to find my count out, or if I'll even be able to GIVE a sample given my Low T (making it hard to get it up) and the anxiety/pressure of the lab environment.

I had so many questions about my T injections for the nurse on the phone, that they recommended I come in and see the endo again Tuesday to discuss them. I also asked the nurse again about Clomid, and she and the doc both weren't really feeling the idea.

I'm going to once and for all get ALL my T injection risk questions answered, and push for Clomid. I'm also going to ask his thought on HCG shots. Has anyone had experience with those? Do they have less side effects than T Injections?

If he refuses to treat me with anything but injections, without even letting me try other stuff first, it's very tempting to start the Clomid (it came in the mail today). I hate playing Dr. for myself, but I refuse to jump on the T Injection bandwagon (which could be a lifelong commitment...what if my body never makes it's own T again, even after stopping injections down the line?) before even trying other options.

Any thoughts are appreciated....it's getting really frustrating...another weekend of feeling like absolute hell, while everyone is out having fun

[PeakT]

Any thoughts are appreciated....it's getting really frustrating...another weekend of feeling like absolute hell, while everyone is out having fun

Well, that's an interesting comment.  The doctors tend to think of testosterone as a "lifestyle" issue.  But it's really much more than that - it's generally a health issue.  It's just plain hard on the body...

[no9to5r]

Was the MRI pituitary done with the contrast agent?  A plain MRI of the brain or one without contrast is not adequate to see pathology in the pituitary.  Your T and LH are so low that there must something there.  Hypophysitis is a possibility.

" gyno and testicular shrinkage "  if your esrtogen rises, you get nipple tenderness.  yes some shrinkage in the testes can occur.

Consider T pellet therapy.  The doctor can add a low dose anastrazole in the pellet to prevent the rise in estrogen.

"Cleveland clinic"  The article published by CC is filled w misinformation.  T varies very little during the day.  Morgenthaler has a paper on this.  T does not cause prostate cancer, rather it is protective.  The levels recommended are too low.  At 75 y/o, your T should be 680 +/- 127. so in your 20's the T will be 800-1200.  You can get levels like that with T injections, but pellets are smoother.

[PeakT]

Was the MRI pituitary done with the contrast agent?  A plain MRI of the brain or one without contrast is not adequate to see pathology in the pituitary.  Your T and LH are so low that there must something there.  Hypophysitis is a possibility.

" gyno and testicular shrinkage "  if your esrtogen rises, you get nipple tenderness.  yes some shrinkage in the testes can occur.

Consider T pellet therapy.  The doctor can add a low dose anastrazole in the pellet to prevent the rise in estrogen.

"Cleveland clinic"  The article published by CC is filled w misinformation.  T varies very little during the day.  Morgenthaler has a paper on this.  T does not cause prostate cancer, rather it is protective.  The levels recommended are too low.  At 75 y/o, your T should be 680 +/- 127. so in your 20's the T will be 800-1200.  You can get levels like that with T injections, but pellets are smoother.

Hey,

I haven't seem Blue Metroid around in a long time.  You may want to post a new thread about some of your thoughts - it might help out some of the other guys...

[Sam]

Great post and appropriate for me.   Just last night we saw a commercial for Ageless Male and my wife asked, "why don't your try that?"

[PeakT]

PRS Artist had a great post and I moved it here (regarding docs being worried about side effects, etc.):

http://peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=982.msg8910#msg8910